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i didnt fully read his or your article but from the gist of skimming it all, i agree with you generally. alternatively, young asian americans with a lot of cultural pride seem to stick within their ethnicities, not because their parents want asian babies or anything, but just because the generation they were raised, usually 2nd or 3rd american generations because the families are still relatively fob-ish and they are just accustomed to asian attributes.
i know, kind of stray from the original "physical appearance" factor. but lately i've seen several young asian men are starting to beef up. i found it hard myself to develop a muscular chest until recently. i'm also only 5'7 lol
I'm half Filipino, half white but I look 100%. I’m not what the media portrays the stereotypical Asian male looks like either; I’m 5”11, 190 lbs with a muscular frame. I spent my whole life around white people. I was raised white and taught very little about my Asian heritage, now I have to learn everything on my own through my grandparents, books, internet, other Asians, etc. All of my uncles are white and so is my father. I grew up hearing them and my Asian aunts and mother mock Asian males and denounce their heritage because when they grew up in the ‘70’s on the east coast being white was the best thing to be, those who were different were discriminated against. I too fell into this belief that Asians are inferior and that I was white even though I was known as the “Chinese kid” growing up and mocked about my Asian appearance. I never understood why they associated me with Asians because I thought I was white. As a result I hated all Asians and steered away from Asian women because I didn’t want to be associated with them and validate any stereotypes that Asian guys can only get Asian women. Today, I’m smarter now and proud of my Asian side, I can no longer deny the beauty of Asian women either. I’m disgusted by my previous beliefs and actions but find it understandable because everywhere I looked I was being told that white people are better people and more attractive. I try to educate my younger cousins and sister who are all half Asian and white to be proud of their Asian heritage unfortunately they are allowing the stigmas of society to cloud their judgment and many of them denounce their Asian side as I once did. My aunts and mother have no idea why I am proud to be Asian either, I can no longer discuss these issues with them because their ignorance just makes me sick to my stomach. My story is an example of how detrimental stereotypes and stigmas created by westernized beliefs can have disastrous effects on ethnic groups. They all derived from preconceived notions that one race is superior to another whether it’s physically, mentally, sociably, etc. Now that I witness other Asian women fall for the same ignorant westernized beliefs portrayed by the American media I feel that maybe we haven’t come that far since my aunts’ and mother’s time. At times I feel helpless and uncertain of how I can permanently expel these negative beliefs. Asian guys need to step up too; I’ve seen a lot of stereotype Asian males that due nothing but set the rest of us back. They need to expand there horizons as well and date not only white women but Latinas, black girls, Indians, middle easterners, etc. America is the melting pot of the world so why limit yourself to one race, we are all beautiful. As Asian guys it is our jobs to eradicate these negative Asian male stereotypes just remember to be confident, we are the biggest underdogs of all the ethnic men out there but you should use that to fuel your commitment to end these stigmas as I do.
I feel like this letter and the previous one about white guys (and its response) is focusing on something that is a result of a much larger issue within society. I understand where both of you are coming from, but there is something bigger as to why Asian Americans are less "confident" and other stereotypes.
The reason its so tough for us Asian-Americans is because we are part of a minority here in America. America preaches both integration and pluralism and many see it as a double-package; however they are quite often different things - Integration requires assimilation whereas pluralism requires multiculturalism. How can we assimilate and still hold true to multiculturalism? Many Americans preach this vagueness yet they themselves do not understand it, and for caucasians, cannot understand it as for they are the majority.
Therefore, it is tougher for Asian Americans to so-call "fit in." The majority, Caucasians, probably did not face discrimination when growing up whereas minorities, Asian, Latino, and African alike, did. To be as 'bold' and gutsy and have "confidence" as an American is asking for a double-standard for Asian Americans. It would be asking them to assimilate into Caucasian society but assimilating would be renouncing certain cultural/heritage ties we have. This is tough for early generation Asians who are confused about their identity as Asian-Americans.
I only wish to see the day when racism is dead and realize that all cultures and practices, are equally favorable. I feel like you promoted a sense of injustice towards Asian men. With your last comment, I don't feel Asians are likely to "do better" if they are constantly being bashed with these stereotypes. I personally came across this site as a means to find encouragement as an Asian-American. I hope you understand.
I am an Asian male currently serving in Afghanistan. I read your article and was really dissapointed in the way you portray your dad, grandfathers, brothers, uncles, or any male cousins and friends you may have. I'm pretty sure they wouldnt appreicate your negative comments.
Dont be so quick to stereotype and generalize a group of people based on what YOU have seen or experienced. In your reply you mentioned, "I'm willing to bet that if there was some kind of universally fair physical test that was given to every American man and every Asian -American man, the Americans would get more points." First off I want to begin by saying "American" isnt a race. I'm Korean but im also an American. As a matter of fact, I like to consider myself an American-Korean instead of vice versa because of the fact that I fight for this country and would never find the same kind of pride as i would if i were to serve in Korea's military. In regards to the physical fitness part....there are universal and fair physical tests that every man can take to test their strength and endurance. They're called Special Forces physical fitness tests. Every military branch has them. I dont mean to brag but i've maxed out points for each test (Army SF, Air Force Pararescue, and Navy Seals)...not to mention that I was the only one to do so. Each test consists of running, swimming, and strength portions that would make the average person have a heart attack while trying to perform. I also hold the record for most pushups in a minute for many military installations. Try and find anyone that can do 118 military pushups in 60 seconds.
What also disturbed me was the fact that you implied that Brad Pitt's body is too difficult for many men to acheive. You've got to be kidding me! I dont mean to brag but his body isnt very muscular or cut. He's just slim. As a matter of fact, his body is trash...compared to mine. Again, I dont mean to show off but rather making a point out of my confidence that anyone would agree that I have a more muscular and toned frame that Brad Pitt. If you dont believe me then I'd be more than happy to send you a picture. I've been contacted by and also referred to many fitness modeling agencies by my girlfriend (who just so happens to be Causcasian), but sadly had to turn down offers because I am a military officer. There would be alot of backlash towards my career if i were to do so.
I've played soccer ever since I was a kid and ended up playing in high school and college my freshman year. Sadly, I dropped out of the team because it was too difficult to juggle soccer, studies, and ROTC at the same time. I also enjoy baseball and football. Back at my base I take time to mentor and teach kids how to play soccer and how to surf ( for free of course). Nothing is more fulfilling then investing my effort in the future of our country. It's been extrememly rewarding.
I dont plan on being in the military too long because of the strain that it puts on myself and my relationships with the lady and my family. Nothing means more to me than them. What's next for me you ask? I've been offered a gov't contracting job that pays me at a starting salary of 200K / yr because of my experience and because I graduated Cum Laude from my University with a double major in International Politics and Economics. Im only 3 years out of college also. That's great money for a guy only 3 years out. So dont just think I'm some sort of meat-head either. I'm a confident/ all around type of guy. You can call me a rare example but every man has the opportunity to make those most of themselves.
Regards.
Lieutenant K
05-10-2009, 07:42 AM (This post was last modified: 05-10-2009 07:47 AM by DRoseThorn.)
Okay, why is everyone above posting about how much they work out and how buff they are. Who gives a damn? You think the author cares just cause a few Asian guys go work out everyday sipping on Creatine while driving in their ferraris? No, she got her mind made up, it doesn't matter a bit what you guys do. I mean, Obama is the head of America, but the head of the Klan is still running around isn't he? I work out everyday, I'm buff, but do I care if I see an Asian brother skinner than me, of if he looks "wimpy"? No why should I? I'm not crazy enough to judge others based on their appearance, by default it's always respect first, and until you do me wrong the respect will always be there regardless of how they look.
Look, I'm not disprecting the author, her viewpoint is fine by me. She's right, you don't see a lot of Asians in the NBA, or NFL, or whatever league they have. And yes, it's because they're not talented enough, or big enough, or just not skilled enough to play there. But the point is, do you even know WHY there isn't a lot of Asians in the NBA???? If the author is Asian, then there's a good chance that she knows what the "Asian" childhood is like. What do your parents preach to you everyday after you get home from school? "Go outside and work on your game so you can play in the league???" Is that what they say? You know any Asian kids that can go out and shoot 1000 jumpers everyday for hours and hours and their parents would not beat their asses??? I guess Asian kids "can" go and play ball....but they're not dumb enough to do something like that. Of course, maybe there are cases where an Asian guy grew up near the projects and go out with his friends to hoop everyday at the park....but how common is a case like that? When I used go to play ball (pickup...let's not get carried away here), I always see Black parents take their kids to play with them. Always teaching them how to shoot and dribble. How often do you see Asian parents take their kids and support them?? Not often is it?? Let's face it, alright, most of the Black players in the NBA grew up in desperate or inferior enviornments where things just isn't sunny everyday, some of them go out and play ball just to stress out of their minds. Does most Asian-Americans grow up in the projects where they can go play basketball everyday???? Give me a break. And plus, Asian-American only takes up a small percentage of the entire U.S. population, so of course you're not gonna see Asian guys anywhere on TV, or on the field or wherever they're misrepresented.
And about the Brad Pitt fight club physique, it's quite easy to master. All it takes is less than 10% bodyfat and some muscles here and there. Which most people in Asia could easily achieve but of course they won't. Their skinny and too slender, no muscles. But do you even know WHY they're like that???? When do most people start exercising in the US? I don't know, around 16 in high school right? So if you're Asian guy in China, and you go to High School, would you even HAVE TIME to goof off and go lift weights???? Hell no, you'd be on your toes doing homework piled atop of each other or else your butt isn't going to college, and if you don't go to college, you know what that means, that's a death sentence in China, you'll be in a world of pain. Even if your an Asian guy in the United States, your parents would be constantly on you about getting to a top college and they'll make sure that you don't freaking goof off and start pumping no weights. So do you get it now? Do you get why Asian guys seem physically inferior?? This stuff outside of their freaking control, it's pressure built on top of pressure. It's not like they were raised in a household where everything is set. Asian parents sacrificed too damn much to come over to this country just to see his kid go lift some weights, they have too much of a leash on them. You just can't blame some random Asian guy for some stuff like this.
Also, you can't just boil all the problems to one thing: Go man up, or go lift weights.
How do you know what they need??? Hell, being an Asian myself, I don't even know what some random Asian guy needs...all I know is what I NEED.
Sure, I agree with you on the fact that Asian-American should improve themselves, but that doesn't mean just should go work out and watch Fight Club and that's it.
What kinda retarded logic is that???
Not every Asian guy likes to do bench press and squat and all that stuff. Just like not every White or Black guy enjoys lifting weights.
So why the double-standard? They can get away with it fine, but we can't huh.
I thought that David/Asian Rake's responses had a stronger basis in logic than Rochelle's arguments.
The exchange started out as more or less an absolute statement about the genetic inferiority of Asian men, and that was unfortunately implied due to Rochelle's sloppy organization of her supporting arguments. Or more accurately, her glaring omissions of some obvious facts.
So now it has turned into a discussion about the REASONS behind the physiques of different races of men, but I believe the issue to boil down the following: History.
There is no race-based genetic potential to what any nation of man can achieve in both athletic feats and stature/build - provided they have the optimal nutritional, social, economic, cultural, and political conditions for such endeavors.
And of course, much of those conditions are dictated by the historical manouvering a particular nation engaged in, to secure all those resources and conditions.
Put it this way.
If Asians had historically done exactly what whites have done and invaded Europe, plundered its resources and colonized its natives to set up a base for natural resource extraction, then shipped all those resources (timber, coal, spices, diamonds, gold, silver, tea, other commodities) back to Asia to strengthen and shore up its burdgeoning commercial and industrial base - Asia would have eventually created a market economy that generated enough individual prosperity to maximize every Asian’s access to the stable political and social conditions that are a prerequisite to engagement in recreational sports activities, not to mention sufficient quantities of highly nutritious food and exercise regimins (this includes institutions for athletics and sport).
This of course would have been AT THE ULTIMATE EXPENSE OF THE EUROPEANS THEY COLONIZED- and we would see the EXACT MIRROR IMAGE of the current situation on the world stage today.
Now, posit further that these world-colonizing Asians learned the errors of their ways and returned the power and lands back to their rightful European/white owners and went back to their country. Does that change anything? NO. The damage is already done - the infrastructure of Europe would be badly strained due to the relentless siphoning of resources to the Colonizer's lands during colonial times, and because of that things never return to 'zero', or parity for all nations. All Asia would have done (just as Europeans and Americans have done in real history) is say "my bad", while keeping all the resources, credit, and institutions (financial, social, infrastructural) that they had leeched off of their colonial bases.
It's a rigged game, and again those economic conditions dictate how far along various nations are in terms of creating the optimal social and economic conditions for its citizens to grow big and tall - and by Rochelle's metrics - "masculine".
Let me illustrate what I wrote above further by pointing out some hypothetical results of this “Reverse-history” of Asians colonizing Europe and any other lands populated by whites. In this hypothetical world which is a mirror image of Europeans/Americans have done (and continue to do):
1. Due to Asia’s economic/political/social advantages which were reaped from generations of colonial plunder, we would see comparative social economic conditions that cause Caucasian men all over the world to be about 2 inches shorter than Asian men, on average.
2. We would have witnessed Asians invading the Americas during its colonial expansion, exterminating the Natives and setting up a continent-wide nation in the image of their Asian homeland.
3. This emergent ‘Asian nation’ of the New World would one day grow to surpass the Asian motherland and become a superpower that would dominate the entire world - politically, militarily, and even culturally (the "United States of Asia"?).
4. We would see poor European and North American immigrants trying to make their way to Asia and the “other USA” in search of opportunity.
5. We would see Asian men taking advantage of the vulnerable position of these white immigrants to systematically oppress the males with negative rumors and stereotypes, while enticing the white females with promises of wealth and social status-by-proxy.
The end result would be the extreme skew between Asian man/white female relationships and the opposite (AF/WM) - all in the distinct favor of the Asian Man. Sound familiar? It should.
6. We would see a global media empire (built on the back of an Asian industrial powerhouse that rose directly from colonial plunder and the unequal trade balances that resulted from that colonial world order) that exports images of ALL Asian males as sexy, dynamic, interesting, masculine, and dominant.
Of course whether this actually reflects reality is immaterial, as whoever controls the TV stations and publishing houses controls this virtual "reality".
Consequently almost all the white women ‘left behind’ in Europe and other parts of the world will succumb to subliminal media brainwashing and clutch their VHS tapes and pirated DVDs of these ‘Asian Gods’, and pray that one of them will appear in their country, and whisk them away from all the ‘white losers’ they see outside their apartment window - all “broke, short, white, and impotent”.
7. In addition, Asian women who occupy the female standard of beauty thanks to this "Asian-centric" media monolith will wrinkle their nose in disgust at the "lowly white bugs" that even dare to look their way.They only want Asian men - they are the "best" in their eyes, because they feel the social pressure to always seek the most powerful men.
8. And indeed, we would see all the above this happen: rich and politically/socially/culturally empowered men from Asian nations (that benefitted from the historical colonization of European and ‘white’ nations) will come to the shores of ‘poor’ white countries, using the favorable exchange rate to live a life of luxury in these economic backwaters. White women everywhere will step over each other to get with these Asian men, and the native white men will grumble helplessly as these Asian men exploit this imbalance to their sexual advantage.
^ The above is all hypothetical - but it clearly illustrates Rochelle’s hopeless gaps in knowledge about how the legacy of Colonialism shapes her very existence in this modern world - how she sees herself as an Asian woman, how she sees Asian men, and of course how she sees white men.
Someone astutely pointed out that due to the way history unfolded (with Europeans taking the initiative in colonial expansion), Asian cultures have generally ended up not emphasized athletic achievement as western ones, since most Asian nations were developing and hate comparatively fewer resources and time to devote to such recreational matters.
Take that cultural bias against athletic endeavors - and add it to the political, social, technological, economic, and cultural dominance of the West in the past 300 years (which is actually just a historical blip and an anomaly in an otherwise uninterrupted upward trajectory of Eastern dominance) - and you have a recipe for the conditions that Rochelle failed to account for in her assessment of the supposedly inferior genetic potential of Asian men.
Now in her follow-ups she readily admits her lack of foresight in only looking at the phenomenon (of white men being larger and more “masculine” than Asian men) from an America-centric perspective, and then goes onto slyly downplay that - but in reality that is the FATAL FLAW in her whole argument, right from the beginning.
She basically didn’t do her homework. Gee, and here I was - thinking that all of us Asians were academically-inclined ‘due to our genes’!
If she was merely stating an observation that Asian-American males were smaller than Caucasian-American males - and had she stated the DEEPER (as in historical, sociological) reasons why this might be - then we could have called it a day at that point.
But by failing to add a disclaimer that she was not suggesting any kind of genetic determinism (read: racism) in her essay - she made what was essentially a eugenist’s argument.
So that’s it? Asian men are inferior? Are we an evolutionary dead-end? I beg to differ, but that's the vibe this reader got, at least in part. And I'm not annoyed because it's true - I'm annoyed because such a suggestion is patently false, not to mention rather base and simplistic.
That we Asian-American men today are the children of a generation of parents who grew up in Asia under the relative poverty of the 1940s to the 1960s (compared to the US at the time) is an extremely relevant point insofar as how we may not have lived up to our full genetic potential for athletic excellent, but I saw nary a mention of that fact by Rochelle. And that these parents responded to their formative poverty by emphasizing academic achievement above all else was not mentioned, either.
Now, onto my corollary points.
Having a loudmouth Asian woman yakking disrespectfully on our soapbox without any shame also says something about our ‘State of the (Asian-American) Union’.
And see, here’s the problem that Asian-America finds itself in, as a community:
We (Asians in America) live in a white patriarchy that is ruled, more or less, by white men. They will calibrate social norms as they see fit, and enforce it on all people via cultural apparatus such as the media.
But on those occasions when they do allow minorities to have a say - they will usually give the WOMAN of the minority racial group the chance to stand on his soapbox.
And predictably, the pre-condition of her hopping on the White Man’s soapbox is of course that she must, more or less, echo his own sentiments and buy into his ideologies.
Otherwise, the White Man keeps her at bay, along with all the other “Chinamen”.
(Note 1 : I know that the owners of AsiaAmped are most likely Asian-American men or women. I'm not saying this writer "works for The Man", but I'm describing how things are on a wider, sociological level.)
(Note 2: Due to the prominence of black men as the ‘poster-boy’ for Anti-Racism, white men cannot either brazenly or silently do this with the African-American community. He must make a public display of giving him some deferential treatment - hence the relatively heavy representation of black men in media and other highly public platforms.)
The above social/sexual niche is what the Asian woman fits into, and as a consequence many of them have become emboldened by the tacit approval of the White Man’s entry into his inner circle.
Now, I'm not implying that Rochelle is this proverbial "sellout" - on the contrary! I applaud her intentions (they were just coming from the wrong place, is all). I mean let's face it: whitewashed, self-hating Asian women don't generally post encouraging articles on sites like this - they're too busy trying to fit in with the Cancun Spring Break crowd from colleges like Ohio State or Arizona State.
What I am doing though, is cautioning everyone about the dangers of our internalized racism. We all have it - even those of us that fancy ourselves as educated and "aware". I know I do, and I realize that my only hope of salvation is to be constantly vigilant about my own succeptability to this insiduous force.
I also believe that her approach in addressing Asian men was a mistake and weakens her position as the defender of her own writings, due to the history of the Asian woman’s complicity with the white man in his White Male Patriarchy.
Now, not even taking into account the previous points I made in the post above - she just decreased the effectiveness of her message (which I believe was well-intentioned - she wanted to push AMs to improve themselves) by being rude and obnoxious in her delivery of said message.
And again, I must stress that she was rude not because she cursed or flamed anyone - but because she failed to read between the lines and recognize the strained dynamics between Asian men and Asian women, thanks to the AF's complicity within White Male Patriarchy.
Her faintly eugenist standpoint coupled with her rather revealing internalization of notions of white male supremacism didn’t exactly add any extra credibility, either. Talk about a colossal failure in communication.
But hey. It’s 2009, right? We could let this one slide, perhaps?
We could - but perhaps we shouldn’t. I dunno. We shouldn’t harpoon ALL Asian-American women (Cos god dammit, I LOVE em! At least the ones that keep it real...), but maybe we should let Rochelle’s piece stand as a monument.
It’s one thing to let bygones be bygones, but an Asian-American woman as a group need to understand that they can’t expect to compare Asian men to white men in such an un-nuanced, brusque manner - and without any respect to the racist neo-colonial dynamics in her gender’s complicity with White Men - and not expect to hear an earful.
That’s just basic manners, and common sense.
And there she was, thinking that she was just being “sassy” in that 'Tyra Banks Show' way - and found that she stepped on quite a few toes.
And finally:
One could dryly assert that history or no history - facts are facts and that due to the advantageous legacy of white/European males, they ended up larger in size and are therefore “more masculine” by culturally American metrics of masculinity (read: ‘roided muscles, copious body hair, and hyper-aggressive behavior and/or machismo).
That’s fine. History is history, and there’s nothing I can do about the way it turned out. I can only hope to improve my lot in the PRESENT. I can accept that - but still I cannot accept the ignorance (Not lack of intelligence! You can absolutely be intelligent and ignorant of certain things at the same time!) of people like Rochelle to fail to recognize WHY it’s like that.
So in short - I think it’s abundantly clear what (and also why) a poor impression of herself she gave to the readers of AmpedAsia by writing that ill-conceived article.
These are just my opinions, so take them for what they are. I'm not a professional writer. Just a passer-by that was compelled to respond.
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Are we an evolutionary dead-end? I beg to differ, but that's the vibe this reader got, at least in part. And I'm not annoyed because it's true - I'm annoyed because such a suggestion is patently false, not to mention rather base and simplistic.